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upgradeitis - 2006/10/04 12:23From another thread...
dave wrote: the 'dark side' is more the onset of upgradeitis
I only have a $90 Krups burr grinder and $200 Breville Cafe Roma pump espresso machine. I bought it about two weeks ago and found this site shortly after. Now I want more, MORE MoRE dammit !!! sigh...
I find myself wondering... "how much better could my coffee be if I had a better grinder? a better espresso machine?"
I'd say my coffee is already better than Starbucks but not as good as the best I've had (ie. Discovery Coffee). I'm not sure how to calculate the extra quality I might get with a $200 to $300 grinder and a $500 espresso machine.
Where is the "sweet spot"? What price range will give you 85% to 95% of the maximum possible from home machines?
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colin
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Re:upgradeitis - 2006/10/04 13:01JoeDoe wrote: From another thread...
dave wrote: the 'dark side' is more the onset of upgradeitis
I find myself wondering... "how much better could my coffee be if I had a better grinder? a better espresso machine?"
Where is the "sweet spot"? What price range will give you 85% to 95% of the maximum possible from home machines?
I get asked this 1000 times a year... seriously.
The answer is: Good burr grinder - $179 - $229 + basic pump driven espresso maker with a real boiler - the Breville is NOT a boiler powered espresso maker. It utilizes largely discarded technology -- a thermoblock pump system - very prone to scale build-up and quick failure. Breville must have discovered a warehouse full of the parts that go into these..
Anyway - I digress..
That and FRESH espresso coffee from a local roaster.
Starbucks DOES NOT generally sell fresh coffee - they haven't for years. The bigger they get, the worse their coffee gets. It is that simple. Want great coffee? Avoid StarbucksColin is the Senior editor and creator of the CoffeeCrew.Com Website
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JoeDoe
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Re:upgradeitis - 2006/10/04 15:24colin wrote: The answer is: Good burr grinder - $179 - $229 + basic pump driven espresso maker with a real boiler - the Breville is NOT a boiler powered espresso maker. It utilizes largely discarded technology -- a thermoblock pump system - very prone to scale build-up and quick failure.
is getting the grinder right more important for me now than the quality of the pump espresso machine? would I notice an increase in quality from upgrading the grinder but just longer life from a boiler powered espresso maker?
sorry if this is more than obvious to you or already answered somewhere else on your site
many thanks,
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scoobydoo
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Re:upgradeitis - 2006/10/04 15:32I upgraded my espresso machine and right now get my coffee ground when I buy it. Yes I know..ahhhhh bad bad bad but I usually only buy 1/4pound at a time.
$175 to $229 for a grinder? Where and what kind? I have a silvia and for some reason everyone says a rocky works the best with the silvia?
sort of off topic...I made a straight espresso shot yesterday to drink and it was a bit tardy. I was wondering if that is a result of tampering it to much?
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dave
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Re:upgradeitis - 2006/10/04 19:17JoeDoe wrote: is getting the grinder right more important for me now than the quality of the pump espresso machine? YES, ABSOLUTELY. Your Krups burr grinder is but a pale shadow of a true burr grinder. You would get the idea if you compared the burrs from other "thumbs-up" grinders with the dull, knobby discs that are likely to be found in yours. Go have a look at the pictorial comparison here.
The grind from the Krups grinder is not very consistent. This flaw will result in a muddied taste profile, unavoidable bitterness from the over-extraction of fines, and channelling that further destroys the potential of the shot by giving you an even more uneven extraction. It is possible to get a crema-laden shot from a Krups grinder with tweaking, care, and experience, but it doesn't taste nearly as good as the same shot ground on a proper burr grinder.
FRESH coffee is tremendously important, for all methods of brewing coffee, but especially evident when brewing espresso. Consistently- and precisely-ground coffee is likewise very important. I will actually advise you to grind your coffee at the roaster on a GREAT grinder (requires experimentation and patience) before grinding per-shot on an inadequate grinder like the Krups, assuming that you can replenish your supply frequently enough. The Krups may manage to meet shot times, but the profile of the shot will be greatly deteriorated. The staling preground coffee from the roasterie will produce better tasting shots, despite becoming stale (obviously, there is a point at which it becomes so stale that this ceases to be true, but I would argue that it is later than day one). This applies in extreme cases where the home grinder is not up to the job. In all other cases, grinding fresh is vastly preferable.
would I notice an increase in quality from upgrading the grinder but just longer life from a boiler powered espresso maker? You will notice a difference in shot quality and consistency from a boiler/pump machine.
I use the lower-priced Gaggia home machines, like the Espresso/Carezza/Evolution, as a baseline. They are fairly affordable ($300+), and despite plastic exteriors use good quality components and a heavy brass group to promote thermal stability. They actually use a commercial-sized 58mm portafilter, allowing you easy access to parts and accessories like baskets and tampers. Saeco, Solis, Imat/Mokita machines are also good, but get them with a non-pressurized portafilter/basket. The pressurized versions are not benefits: they significantly degrade your espresso.
Cheap (in quality, not necessarily in price) thermoblocks and some lightweight boiler machines are wannabies. With an experienced barista and quality fresh coffee, you might still manage a half-decent shot, but you will have a hard time doing so consistently or achieving the best profile. There is a big jump up to the Gaggia as our baseline for a capable machine. Even the difference between a heavy brass portafilter and one made from aluminum is significant.
On the other side of the equation, espresso machines keep going up in price beyond these affordable single-boiler Gaggias. Once at this level, however, you are really looking at the quality of your coffee and your barista skills more than the machine. [Edited to correct an oversimplification:] Yes, expensive HX machines will offer you more flexibility, more control, better thermal regulation, and increased consistency. Build quality, features, and ease of use play a large part in choosing these machines over another. You will notice a much bigger difference in the quality of your espresso by improving your grinder vs. changing machine types.
There is one thermoblock that has a growing following in Australia - the Sunbeam EM6900 dual-thermoblock named after Paul Bassett. It has a humungous basket for brewing with lots of coffee, has some design quality concerns (lots of trips to the shop for warranty service on the first production model), but is said to brew a decent shot. Most thermoblocks are cheap wannabies, however, that do NOT brew a good shot and may have very poor steaming performance. Anything in a department store or anywhere that sells non-espresso equipment should be avoided, basically.
Dave There are exceptions to all generalizations. They are, however, found only in exceptional cases.Dave is an Ottawa resident and Coffee Expert
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dave
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Re:upgradeitis - 2006/10/04 19:29scoobydoo wrote: $175 to $229 for a grinder? If you can afford it, investing in a sturdily-built, capable grinder like the Rancilio Rocky or the Cunil Tranquilo (USD$200) is recommended as a starting point.
There are less expensive grinders (than the Rocky, anyway) that will do the job, even stepless ones, but their build quality is not up the same standard. In some cases, their burrs may wear more quickly as well (and may or may not be available as replacements).
I am managing fairly well with a Virtuoso, but I had to modify it to make this feasible (see my review). Once you correct the grind range, the grind quality on my model is very good. Our experience with the latest run Virtuoso was less positive, unfortunately.
I made a straight espresso shot yesterday to drink and it was a bit tardy. I was wondering if that is a result of tampering it to much? If you mean that your shot came out very slowly: yes, this could be due to overtamping, especially in the single basket. However, there is not a big difference between tamping at 30lbs or at 50lbs. You'll see a much greater difference from 15lbs to 30lbs.
Another possibility is that you dosed too much coffee in the basket. Third, that your grind was too fine.
DaveDave is an Ottawa resident and Coffee Expert
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BP101
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Re:upgradeitis - 2006/10/05 08:08If you don't want the hassle of shopping around, and can access stuff from the US, you can just go to CoffeeCrew-friendly Whole Latte Love and get a Gaggia Espresso and a Gaggia MDF grinder for $199 US apiece. You would have to spend considerably more to get a set-up that would consistently out-perform this duo.
If you are in Canada, do you have any US-based friends coming up for Christmas? I have even heard of people arranging to have their online-ordered equipment delivered to an American UPS Store address near the border and driving down to pick it up. When you consider the price differential (particularly with the strong Canadian dollar) and the outrageous prices that Purolator and others charge to get this (duty-free) equipment waived through customs, it can really be worth your while.
Best of luck.
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JoeDoe
Visitor
Re:upgradeitis - 2006/10/05 18:36Dave,
thank you for the detailed response - I have a much better idea now where I stand and how much it will cost to get a noticeable improvement.
I'm toying with the idea of getting a Gaggia Classic or Rancilio Silvia and am fairly certain about upgrading to a Rancilio Rocky grinder. Between the first two, which would be less likely to need maintenance? How long can we realistically expect these two machines to last? How much fussier would the Silvia be compared to the Gaggia? Could I expect to get good at it with a month of practice or is it some kind of exotic tweaker thing that only a master can master?
Does anyone know what kind of warranty/service EspressoTech offers if you buy the stuff from them?
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I am going with the Saeco Aroma. I just can't foresee the Silvia and a great grinder being in my budget before the summer :(
Thanks for the tip about grinders. I've been concentrating on espresso ...
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