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Rancilio classic vs Gaggia classic - 2006/09/03 11:25I'm looking to buy, I have no experience with either machine and they seem similar (?). Also, I live in Victoria and wonder where to buy. Any advice on the pros and cons of these 2 machines?
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David
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Re:Rancilio Silvia vs Gaggia classic - 2006/09/03 11:31I meant Silvia
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dave
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Re:Rancilio Silvia vs Gaggia classic - 2006/09/03 15:43David,
You can probably find debates ad nauseum comapring the merits of the Classic vs. Silvia. I am a Gaggia user, and Colin has a Silvia (hopefully he will chime in).
In some senses, they are similar are very capable single boiler machines. However, there are some significant differences (in no particular order):
1. Boiler composition: Gaggia boilers are half aluminum (top) and half brass (bottom). While Gaggia boilers should be safe, they are more prone to pitting/corrosion and this is one factor cited when opting for a Silvia.
2. Boiler size: The Gaggia boiler is very small, about 3.5oz (a little over 100ml). The Silvia boiler is much larger, relatively speaking.
2a. Temperature stability There are many debates about the thermal stability of Gaggia machines due to the influx of a relatively significant amount of "cold" water to the small boiler when pulling a shot. However, the heavy brass group lends Gaggia machines a good deal of thermal stability -- the concept that intrashot temperature flux is a "bad thing" is also an ongoing debate. The larger Silvia boiler is an advantage for maintaining temperature throughout a shot, but there are other factors involved. To achieve the desired brew temperature on a Silvia, many employ a technique called temperature surfing in order to peg the desired temperature within the longer heating cycle. On the Gaggia, this is reduced to a brief flushing to turn on the heating element and brewing once the ready light is on (a matter of seconds only).
2b. Recovery time -- one consequence of the Gaggia's small boiler combined with a powerful (>1400W) heating element is that it heats up very quickly. This has benefits both for achieving a relatively consistent starting shot temperature (fast cycling) and for rapidly getting up to steam temperature. I can pull a shot and be steaming within another 20 seconds, microfoaming enough milk for a 5-6oz drink in about a minute following the shot. This makes it more feasible to pull the shot first and steam second. The Silvia takes longer to cycle and longer to heat to steam temperature. The Gaggia is overall a very fast machine, which can be made ready in a short amount of time and which cycles/recovers quickly between tasks. I'm not implying that this makes it better, for there are consequences to the small boiler, but I find this to be a great benefit of the Gaggia machines.
2c. Steaming power The Silvia also has more steaming power once it gets there, however, due to the larger boiler. It also has a much better steam wand than the stubby wand on the Gaggias.
2d. Build design The modern Silvia's boiler is detached from the group, whereas the Gaggia boiler sits above and actually forms part of the group. This can be seen to be help and hinder the temperature stability of the group. Helps keep it hot, but also is theorized to cool it when drawing cool water into the bottom of the boiler. I'm not sure how this actually plays out, but overall the design seems to work well.
3. As mentioned, Silvia has a better steam arm and better steaming capability, hands down. However, as also mentioned, you have to wait longer for it.
4. Quality / Components Silvia has the edge in some areas: brass boiler, resetable thermal cutoff, adustable overpressure valve iirc (well, I think that you can manage to adjust it on the Classic, too?), very sturdy overall construction. I don't have the Classic with its stainless housing to compare to a Silvia (which I also don't have in front of me), but my understanding is that the Silvia wins on overall build quality (with a certain glaring oddness in the drooping grouphead gap).
5. Brew capability and parts Both machines are capable of very good espresso with fresh coffee and good technique. Both will punish the user for bad technique or a poor grind. Both require a fine espresso grind. Some believe that the Silvia offers greater potential for a well-trained barista, but not everyone agrees with this. Overall, I believe that the Gaggia is a bit easier to use, especially for someone with less experience. Both use commercial-size 58mm baskets and heavy brass portafilters. The Rancilio stock baskets are a bit smaller in volume than the Gaggia baskets, I believe. Both use an equivalent Ulka vibe pump. I think that the Silvia has a better dispersion screen / pattern?
...
I think that I should stop here before I get myself too muddled. Especially since I have not used a Silvia myself.
However, many would consider the difference between the Silvia and the Classic as lateral, in that they are both single boiler machines with similar behaviour and capabilities.
Both are excellent single-boiler machines. For an outright "better" machine with greater capabilities, you would be advised to consider other machine types such as heat exchanger (HX) machines, particularly if you are looking to build a lot of milk drinks or serve espresso to company/small groups. You could as easily lean in other directions, depending on your needs, including toward lever machines if you had an interest in manual espresso.
One of the advantages of Gaggia is in the lower-priced but equally capable Gaggia machines: the Espresso, Carezza, and Evolution. While sporting plastic bodies (mainly), they are much cheaper than a Silvia and just about as capable. Once you are up to the price of a Classic, it comes down in many ways to personal preferences and feelings about concepts like "aluminum boiler," "small boiler," and "fast recovery time."
Dave
Disclaimer: I could easily have made errors in the above and if so will welcome their correction / alternative viewpoints.Dave is an Ottawa resident and Coffee Expert
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dave
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Re: don't forget the grinder - 2006/09/03 15:55As we often say: don't underestimate the importance of the grinder!
Choosing a capable espresso grinder is more important and will more greatly affect the quality of your espresso than any difference between these two machines or their brethren.
Be sure to consider this with your budget, unless you already have a capable grinder. When you realize that you need to spend a few hundred (potentially less, potentially more) on a grinder, that sometimes changes your thinking on what machine you should get.
Recommended espresso grinders are the Rancilio Rocky, Cunil Tranquilo, Gaggia MDF and up. Great grinders are things like the Mazzer Mini, Macap, and Cimbali Jr, but this is getting beyond the ken or budget of some home enthusiasts. There are other capable espresso grinders that cost less than Rocky, including some with excellent conical burrsets, but invariably you will be trading off some build quality and longevity to get a price break. Even so, don't expect to spend less than $200 and do your research to make sure that it is what you want. For espresso-dedicated grinders, read up on the difference between stepped, stepless, and worm-gear adjustment mechanisms.
You can also spend a long time trying to decide between doserless and dosered grinders
DaveDave is an Ottawa resident and Coffee Expert
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ellore
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Re: don't forget the grinder - 2006/09/04 03:18I too am interested in a new machine...anyone know where in Victoria to purchase these machines?
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dave
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Re: don't forget the grinder - 2006/09/04 10:21ellore wrote: I too am interested in a new machine...anyone know where in Victoria to purchase these machines? Ellore: please see your original post.Dave is an Ottawa resident and Coffee Expert
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David
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Re:Rancilio Silvia vs Gaggia classic - 2006/09/05 12:18Wow! Thanks for the quick and comprehensive reply Dave! I will digest this and reply in a little while. David
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Another Dave
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Re: don't forget the grinder - 2006/10/18 08:09For purpose of comparing the Miss Silvia and the Gaggia does anyone have any info on:
1. Water temperature at group after thorough preheating
2. Actual recharge times for both machines
3. Actual length (in seconds) of steaming capacity for each machine with steam valve opened full
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dave
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Re: don't forget the grinder - 2006/10/18 23:45Dave,
#2. On the Gaggia side of things, small aluminum boiler + big element = quick recovery.
After brewing a shot, the time from hitting the steam switch to starting to steam is approx. 20 seconds. I actually start steaming before the element kicks off, in order to keep it going, but there is plenty of steam at this point.
The time that it takes the boiler to recover after changing out at least half of the contents with cool water, to the point of the thermostat turning off the element when it again reaches brew temperature, is less. I don't have a hard figure, but it is on the order of ten seconds.
#3. I haven't timed it in the terms you are looking for, but there is apt to be a sizeable difference in favour of Silvia.
However, how much you can steam will also depend on what you are trying to accomplish. If your goal is microfoam, I would suggest that pushing the Gaggia beyond steaming up to 8oz of milk at once will harm your ability to create microfoam, due to there being insufficient steam pressure to properly roll/spin the milk mass.
My benchmark relates to preparing 5-6oz beverages, in which case I can complete pouring latte art in my drink within a minute from finishing the shot pour. Foaming enough milk for a 10oz latte will take longer, and is starting to push the boundaries when looking for microfoam.
If you are simply looking to steam the milk without worrying about consistency so much, you will be able to steam much more. With the Gaggia, it is feasible to pause and continue if necessary to rebuild pressure/refill the boiler when steaming large quantities. Recovery is fast. Of course, what you try to do is avoid the element ever turning off in the first place.
DaveDave is an Ottawa resident and Coffee Expert
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colin
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Re: don't forget the grinder - 2006/10/20 10:56I loved the Silvia -- kept it for a year in fact.
Of all the machines I have used, on the Giotto Premium was better -- But that is twice the machine at twice the price.
So - I am between machines now.Colin is the Senior editor and creator of the CoffeeCrew.Com Website
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